BetterDays
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« on: February 02, 2005, 08:06:34 PM » |
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Pro's / Con's of Each... carbed car... Streetability, performance, HP/TQ, gas mileage (  ) Discuss. |
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TireSmoke
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2005, 08:38:56 PM » |
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i'd go with a 393, unless you plan on going with an aftermarket block for the blower car. Blower will most likely be more streetable...especially if you go with a kenne bell sittin on top of a dart block, aluminum heads, and a blower cam  |
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« Last Edit: Today at 02:24:53 AM by TireSmoke »
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Aussie XAXB
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2005, 09:15:55 PM » |
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How are you getting 550 HP out of a normally aspirated 393? I would think there would be reliability and durability issues for the street. Most likely a cam with all-day duration as well, and not practical enough for the street.
Steve
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Evil95GT
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2005, 10:11:35 PM » |
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How are you getting 550 HP out of a normally aspirated 393? I would think there would be reliability and durability issues for the street. Most likely a cam with all-day duration as well, and not practical enough for the street.
Steve
It's not far fetched at all. Talk to Billy (Wicked393LX). Dude had a 393 in a Fox coupe, ran mid 9s, and even took pics when he drove it to the grocery store. I have no idea what the specs are, but I do know that he knows his stuff when it comes to building a strong 351W. |
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TireSmoke
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2005, 10:34:47 PM » |
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393... high compression, big heads, big top end cam, ~6,500rpm...should get you there...
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« Last Edit: Today at 02:24:53 AM by TireSmoke »
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BetterDays
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2005, 04:51:17 AM » |
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393... high compression, big heads, big top end cam, ~6,500rpm...should get you there...
 Compression was around 11 (a little over).... Would still use pump gas on the street due to cam/alum heads/etc... Peak HP was around 6500RPM..... |
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speedfreak87
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2005, 06:20:42 AM » |
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I don't see that happening with a pump gas carb...... if you went fuel injected with a dfi set then yes.. I would say you can do it on pump gas.
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TireSmoke
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2005, 07:14:02 AM » |
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why not a carb? People have been making tons of power with carb setups for years...
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« Last Edit: Today at 02:24:53 AM by TireSmoke »
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Aussie XAXB
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2005, 07:30:35 AM » |
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Yeah, what smoke said. Carbs are still used for monster motors even. EFI or a carb will not make a difference in octane requirements of the engine. I can see 550HP @ 6,500 RPM with monster everything in the engine, but I'd like to ride in it around town at 35 mph on a hot summer day and see how it idles too. Typically an engine like that doesn't survive well at low RPM. Michelle, any chance of hooking me up for a ride in that thing?  A ride is worth 2,000 words  Steve |
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speedfreak87
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2005, 07:32:35 AM » |
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I don't see it with pump gas.... not with a carb.. not the HP he's looking to get..and have it still be reliable? nope.. don't see it.
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quake101
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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2005, 10:35:55 AM » |
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I would build a 331 and toss a blower on it...  |
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Shortzy
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2005, 11:11:10 AM » |
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lol...im goin 427 with a blower next winter...this summer its just a little 306 with a blower(currently looking, not sure what i want)...ill sell you the 306 after i get the 427 home
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Chris
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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2005, 12:08:25 PM » |
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Joe, what difference between a carb and fuel injection would be the reason that a carb could not do it?
I do think 94 octane would be pushing it. I would mix it with some CAM2.
Steve
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speedfreak87
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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2005, 12:19:40 PM » |
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From the stuff I've seen people get out of a DFI set up, you would never beable to get out of a carb....plus he's looking at 11-1 comp... he'll have a b**** of a time trying to get what he wants from it..
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BetterDays
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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2005, 06:53:49 PM » |
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Carb or FI, I don't think there is much difference there... besides not needing a computer to tune the car...
Pump gas on the street, with retarded timing (most likely) 94 Octane only, not 87 or 89...
110 leaded at the track.
You do realize that I mean 550 HP at the crank, NOT RWHP, right?
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Aussie XAXB
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« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2005, 09:15:25 PM » |
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Retarded timing will drastically effect your performance. You may want to search the net for an octane requirement for the compression you are looking to run.
The legendary cars of the muscle car era all ran on carburetors. Some of these engine, though huge in displacement, made 500 HP in stock form (though were vastly underrated for insurance purposes) all with carburetors and continue to make this much power and more. The whole issue is getting a stoiciometric fuel mixture of close to 14:1 and that can be done with both fuel injection and a carburetor. The engine does not care if a carb or EFI or DFI provides the correct fuel mixture. True, the fuel injection will be more precise over a wider band and possibly add a few percent better mileage, but engines have been making power with carburetors since the begining. NASCAR does not seem to have a problem with them.
Steve
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TireSmoke
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« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2005, 10:02:22 PM » |
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I dont see any reason why a 11:1 motor can't run on Sunoco 94 octane pump gas. I guess if you need to retard timing a bit, then so be it for the street. Run an in cab MSD timing retard box for the street, keep an alternate fuel cell in the back (for the race fuel)....when it comes time to drop the hammer you just dial in 6° or so more timing and switch to RACE FUEL MODE they did it on tuner transformation on a lancer and made awesome track power! |
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« Last Edit: Today at 02:24:53 AM by TireSmoke »
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BetterDays
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2005, 04:39:15 AM » |
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I would not plan on an extra tank for race fuel, but running race fuel (mixed) at the track... And on the street when I am in a good mood!
As far as performance on the street, I do not street race... My concern is performance at the track and the ability to drive it on the street.... This comes to cam choice mainly....
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speedfreak87
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2005, 09:46:30 AM » |
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well....hmmmm.......you want to run race gas... see my vision of making that kinda power on pump gas doesn't work.. which is origanlly what you said.. you said nothing about race gas...
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TireSmoke
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2005, 02:24:19 PM » |
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race gas eh....i wonder what octane you'd need for a 15:1 compression motor...lol...
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« Last Edit: Today at 02:24:53 AM by TireSmoke »
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BetterDays
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2005, 08:58:38 PM » |
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Ability to run on pump gas for street driving...
Run race gas (mixed with current fuel in tank) while at the track....
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Freakingstang
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2005, 09:29:04 PM » |
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IS everyone forgetting about the difference between Aluminum and cast iron heads and compression?
An 11:1 motor with cast iron heads on 89 octane.....Right, keep telling yourself it won't detonate..
An 11:1 motor with aluminum heads....Not a problem on 89, let alone 93 or 94.
Aluminum disapates heat much quicker than cast iron. Cast iron heads retains the heat and this leads to detonation problems when running high compression and low octane. Lower octane fuel ignites quicker and burns hotter than a comparable higher octane. Couple that with a material that retains the heat longer and this is how detonation starts. Now, Aluminum with the same comparable octane will heat and cool before any signs of detonation are near.
That is why they tell you to run the cheap grade in the winter for better ecomomy, cause of colder temps, and the 87 octane ingnites faster than the other grades.
Kevin I relaize what you want to do with the car, 94 octane on the street, race gas mixed at the track. An 11:1 aluminum headed motor won't have any problems as long as it is tuned right.
I believe this is where Joe was leading. A DFI car, hell even a sequential fuel injected car can be tuned better, has better fuel distribution, and more accurate spark control. With a carb, you are dumping fuel and air at the start of the intake, and expecting it to mix properly by the time it reaches the combustion chambers. With the DFI setup, you will get the right amount of fuel injected right into the chamber (as long as it is tuned right), and in my opinion would be more feasable, but not cheaper! than a with carbed setup.
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« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 09:35:43 PM by Freakingstang »
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Steve, one of many...
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2005, 07:32:22 AM » |
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I believe the principle by which you can run lower octane gas with aluminum heads is due to the heat being carried away faster by the aluminum causing compression to be lower than it would be with iron heads. When heat is removed from the combustion process the air in the cylinder does not expand as much as it would when the heat is retained. This is the reason you can easily run 1/2 a point of compression higher with aluminum heads than with iron. This has always been my understanding.
Steve
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BetterDays
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2005, 12:11:30 PM » |
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So it seems that 11.25 (or even more friendly 10.50 or 1075) to 1 CR is not out of the question when it comes to pump gas with Alum Heads.
Now, how does Valve Overlap on the cam affect Compression?
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speedfreak87
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2005, 02:29:31 PM » |
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I believe this is where Joe was leading. A DFI car, hell even a sequential fuel injected car can be tuned better, has better fuel distribution, and more accurate spark control. With a carb, you are dumping fuel and air at the start of the intake, and expecting it to mix properly by the time it reaches the combustion chambers. With the DFI setup, you will get the right amount of fuel injected right into the chamber (as long as it is tuned right), and in my opinion would be more feasable, but not cheaper! than a with carbed setup.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say...it isn't cheaper by wny means, but IMHO it would be the better option...I for one would be putting it in my car if I had the money.. |
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